Hey, everyone, welcome back to Prime Time. I'm stoked to talk to you guys again today. My name is Dr. Chud Kuntz here. I'm the founder and owner Prime Movement as well as Prime Time. And last time we covered part one of "The Terrific Trio," where we talked about cupping primarily. And we kind of really delved into that. We talked about how it's little bit more of you need to be an artist with the pink brush and to really utilize that appropriately, not cupping as all created equal. That's kind of what we're talking about today, but we're going to talk about dry needling. And there's certainly been a buzz in the air and probably the last few years and rightfully so, just because therapists and practitioners are starting to get their hands on it. It's kind of this hot fad, like let's try this out. Let's see if this works for me.
So, I just wanted to give you my perspective on and how I've been using it since I've been using it for a past couple of years. And, you know, to a fault, I think sometimes people feel like it's a miracle drug, it's a miracle pure pill, and that'd be nice if you could just hop in and, you know, have a miracle pill and then everything's good. That certainly feels nice to think that way. Certainly at times it can feel profound in terms of how great it can work. But I just want to kind of give us the whole picture here rather than just singing and praising and bending our knees to it and holding our arms overhead to it. But, you know, dry needling actually kind of started, not quite as rich of a history compared to cupping, right? Cuffing, we're talking about 1500 BC. Needling really kind of what they call wet needling, where they injected with an analgesic of soar or saline or whatever it may be.
That actually started in the 1940s, when they started to look into fashional trigger points. That's really the first time that, from what I could tell is when we started to really get into trigger points. And it wasn't until like the early 1980s. I think one number I saw was 1979 when they started to do these injections into intramuscular myofascial trigger points. And I think it was by accident, they actually forgot to put the analgesics, yet they still had a great result. That was a pretty aha moment, I believe, to the health world there. I bet there are some pretty stunned faces like, "Hey, did you get the analgesic in there Fred?" "Oh, crap. No, I didn't." "Hey, I still feel better. Holy cow. That's nuts." You know, I've met with something like that. So, since then where we're starting to notice the power of the mile fastest system and how it can refer pain into certain areas, you bet there's been a budget buzz about it.
So then it's going to be, what can we do to help decrease these trigger points, whether the active and they are creating pain right now or even acted. And so the awareness to this whole field has just gotten so much bigger. You know, one of the main reasons that we've continued to discover the importance of the myofascially system to really help try to prevent surgeries from pathway anatomical reasons. So check this out. So the subscap, that's just an example. It's one of the four rotator cuff muscles and it sits underneath the shoulder blade, with them also gets really tight and hypertonic. It could actually recreate pain to the backside of your shoulder. So, prior to all this, you might go into the MRI or extra. You got pain in the back of your shoulder. No can figure it out. MRI shows arthritis in the backside of the shoulder shows a small cyst, and it shows that your labor is irritated.
What do you think they're going to do? I mean, they're probably going to give you a corticosteroid shot and then they're getting to said, well, obviously you've got some forms of impairments on the X-Ray,and MRI. You need to get in for a surgery to get this cleaned out. The problem is that we've kind of noticed, and I've seen this personally, that person might go on to have that surgery. They're regaining full range of motion. They're doing their physical therapy and working through the exercises. And 12 weeks later they'll like, "You know, guys, I still have my pain." Like what do you mean? The same pain that I went in for surgery it's still. Crap. You know, in that case, in the example that subscapularis is actually recreating that pain in the back of the shoulder. So you could see how important it is that we investigate what your myofascial system looks like.
And that's really been the direction I've headed in terms of my clinical career to be very heavy in terms of what the myofascial system, the musculoskeletal system is doing because there seems to be a lot of pain that's evading traditional healthcare that needs to be addressed. So, just to kind of get into it, dry needling is wonderful and in a lot of different ways. I tend to use it to help initially decreased sensitivity. So, let's just say I'm working on the pack and I'm barely put my hands on you, and you're kind of jumping around and you go, "Oh my God, it's so sensitive." I might actually start with like a small little needle and just kind of working into that a little bit. And I might just do one. I might literally just do one depending how sensitive you are, where I just go into the muscle for 10 to 30 seconds and then I'm done.
I will just introduce the concept of what dry kneeling can feel like to your body, to your nervous system to try to calm it down. And really, I kind of use it in that way as a form of desensitization, and probably at part just getting into your neuro-muscular system. So as some of you might remember, you've got the parasympathetic system and then the sympathetic system. Sympathetic system is going to be more of your fight or flight, right? Bear's coming at you, your sympathetic systems up and you're running like hell. That's kind of what happens when you've been in pain for a long time. Your adrenal glands keep running, your norepinephrine and your adrenaline's constantly elevated. So if you're constantly elevated, it only makes sense if I touch that pack and you jump, that's because your body's in fear, and it's been in fear and spending that sympathetic system fight or flight for a little while now.
So if I interject a strong stimulus like a needle into you, you bet you're going to jump up through the roof, right? But as we keep doing that two, three, four or five times in different sessions, you're going to be able to tolerate that much, much better. You're going to be able to tolerate that weird sensation and it is a weird sensation. Just to kind of take a quick pivot on that, the sensations I've seen or all over, people can feel it. Like if I'm on the chest, let's just keep that, they might feel it go down in their arm, might kind of feel like oof, like kind of a zinger. Like holy cow. They might not even notice it off a little bit. And then they feel the muscle jump. If the muscle jumps that's actually what we're looking for an involuntary contraction, is what we're looking for.
And I kind of like to describe it as to my clients. Imagine that your body's just got all this harnessed up, neuro-muscular system bound up in that muscle, kind of like it's inside of a balloon. But if I go in there with the needle and pump that balloon, all of a sudden you've got this huge quick cascade of the neuro-muscular system leaving that balloon and it kind of supercharges that muscle and then you get that muscle to jump. And most often soreness will fall away that and then they'll get some relief later on, because we hit a spot where it's kind of bunched up. So, kind of just going back where we started, it can be great for the sensitivity, it can be great for the neuro-muscular system. And I really like it to facilitate muscles by turning them on or off. So, we'll stick to the packets.
It's easy there. The pack tends to be pretty dominant muscle, an internal rotator. And sometimes it can kind of over dominate the rotator cuff. Specifically it's war with the subscapularis, because both of them are kind of competing for internal rotation. Yet the subscap does a great job at stabilizing the shoulder, the pack does a horrible job in doing that and it's just got this huge poor effect. It'll pull your shoulders forward. So, if you got rounded shoulders, chances are your packs quite dominant that. So in that game, I want to facilitate the subscap by turning it on so that there would actually be a cool case to go into the subscap to dry-needle that, and then with the pack I would want to do that to really turn it off. And in that way, I want to help kind of reframe that system in the shoulder that I am facilitating a muscle on that I want and I'm kind of turning the muscle off.
And I think that's kind of a great way to look at it. So, how do we actually go about it: And how is it similar to acupuncture or not? So, we tend to use the same needles. They're all a lot of different forms of acupuncture out there. So that's a little unfair for me to say. And there's actually a lot of different forms of dry needling. Generally speaking, acupuncture, they would do it for a different intent. They might do it for your energy, for your CI, for your meridian lines, for cell vibration and they go in very superficially. It might be just generalized trigger points, not necessarily shoulder-specific. We'll keep hammering away at that. And so they might do it all over your body and then just kind of leave you there for 20,30 minutes. Again, that's very generalizable for you. Acupuncture is out there.
If I've offended you, let me know, but I'm just trying to get people a generalized idea about it. Now, with the form of dry needling like I use, I tend to go after in between anywhere from 10 to 15 seconds where I interject the needle. I'd send to have a depth that can get to the rich deep parts of the muscle belly or tendon. So, it's not necessarily a short one all the time. It has to be relative to the muscles that you're going into it. But I will go in and out, kind of pissing it, in and out, in and out, in and out, trying to search and seek and find the tightest spot and arguably the most sensitive spot. That's of course if it's more of an active trigger point in the acute-like phases rehab. For doing more like ongoing care and recovery, I'll go deeper even into spots that aren't necessarily tender but where I can feel like a tightness to it. So, I'll go in and out and that process will last up to like I said, two minutes or so, and I'll keep going as long as that muscle keeps twitching, because if that muscle keeps twitching, I know that I'm kind of allowing the nervous system to get what it needs out of there and I'm kind of flushing that system out from a neuro-muscular perspective. Once we've done that, I'll stop and I'll take it out. I like to wear gloves on this particular type of style. And then afterwards I'll just have someone kind of moving around and see how they feel. I know for me when the people do it to me, I tend to respond very sore. I might be like, oof, I might have a hard time kind of moving it.
There's a small percentage of people like 10% to 20%, I would say that feel wonderful after moving it, and they have immediate improvement in the range of motion. And that's kind of the fun part. But generally, I would say with dry kneeling, I wouldn't expect a result right away. You might be more sore, kind of covering it up. As you know, our our petitions throughout the day, I think then you'll start to feel that improvement. But I would say a smaller percentage than that now feel that immediate like, holy cow woman and they can feel a lot better, at least with a style that I do it. But usually the process here with dry kneeling is that it does take a few days in my experience before you can really start to receive the benefits of it. But again, that's my style. I will continue to work around the most about what dry needling.
I'm going to work around the area that you have pain. And I tend to not do both sides, unless I kind of get clearance from with you, just because again of the soreness. There's some types of dry kneeling where they'll actually hook E stem into it. There's different types of practitioners, different models of dry needling. So, if I were you or you're receiving dry kneeling care, just feel free to ask your health care practitioner, "Hey, where did you get, you know, certified? Who is your practitioner through? What's your paradigm thought?" Because there are just some different thoughts out there and you just never quite know nowadays who's actually doing it, who's doing it the right way. There are some precautions like the lung field, if you're doing it around the trunk, that you want to be careful, that the practitioners should know what they're doing.
So that's why you just want to double-check. You don't want to cause spontaneous pneumothorax. That would not be good. So yeah, don't worry about that. But you should talk to your clients and your practitioner and make sure they know what they're doing. And then y'all, the practitioner has to be careful about the nerves and the arterial system as well. The vein system, they are really, try not to hit those. They do happen from time to time. I may leave some bruising. So that again, that's just where you want to have the conversation with them. Following up, dry kneeling, you walk them to do ice or heat. I definitely advocate that you continue to move it throughout the day if you just hold your arm there because I needled you throughout the full day and you sleep on it, you don't move it much, it's going to be really, really sore.
So, I encourage active movement. I want you to keep moving it throughout the full day or the next 20, 40, 48 hours. I tend to like heat more than ice, just because you're working on muscles. Muscles tend to get kind of tighter. You want some more blood flow in there. You want some vasodilation, you want some relaxation. So, heat tends to do a nice job, just to kind of get into that and start opening it up, to loosen up. And that can be nice for some recovery. And I really think too, just to be really successful, it really all starts with the setup. You really need to know that the client that yourself feels comfortable. You know what to expect. You guys are on the same page. He shouldn't just be having someone jump right in there and just going without your consent. There'll be times as you start to get into it that you're going to be like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down, slow down."
And that person working with you need to be respectful of that. That's why when I get going, I say, "Are you ready?" "Yes." "Good." And we start. We start going into it, "How are you doing? How are you doing? You know, I found a really sensitive tight spot. You okay if I keep going?' And they're like, "Yeah, go ahead." And that's when I go into it. We'll see the muscle bounce and twitch a few times and they say, "Holy cow, am I hurt? Hurt so good, keep going." I pulled out. I keep some compression on that area just to keep them a little more comfortable transiently after I come out of there and I let it rest for about 30 seconds to a couple of minutes. And then I might have that conversation with you. "How do you feel about going into that again? Because I thought that was very therapeutic, and I bet if we did that one or two more times that, you'll get even more benefit out of that."
So, it should look and feel something like that to have that conversation with it. And you should be really, really comfortable before you even start with the dry kneeling. Because if you're not, I can guarantee you you're going to be tensing up. That's not going to have a good response. It'll probably hurt more than it needs to. So, this is just some fine points that I've noticed in my kind of dry needling career, I guess I can say that I've helped people get the best response. Oof, that was a lot of stuff guys. That was part two. Would be really delved into what dry kneeling is all about, what it looks like, what it feels like. It isn't much more of an art than you may anticipate and not all dry needling is created equal, just like cupping. There are a few different paradigms and schools of thought, I think you should know that.
And I think you should really kind of question your practitioner as to what they're doing and why and really be investigative in that way. And no, it's not a miracle drug or a miracle cure, but I think working through it and having different practitioners kind of give it a try and you, and you might find that one person does it better than the other, and chances are they'll probably help you receive the better care. Next time we're going to really delve into hands-on care because I think a lot of people have no idea what really good hands-on care can even look or feel like anymore. When I say that most people think about draw, excuse me, most people think about massage. And so, we're going to delve into that next time because I think that's a whole other landscape most people aren't familiar with, with really good therapeutic care. That is it. I entirely, it was a great day, and we will see you next time for Prime Time. Thanks, everybody.